Likely about the same amount, don't you think? Obviously, over the product's lifetime one could imagine there's a big difference, which is likely the point.
It may well be worse for the cheaper one, as they have to cut costs somewhere - e.g. Apple recently announced they would move to use recycled rare-earth minerals only, and stop buying from war zones. Which is obviously the way it should be, right?
It's just that there are things we still haven't solved when it comes to conflicts, business, government and industry, leading to all of us here walking around with minerals mined by hand, by children, at gunpoint.
Now, if we want to change this, regulation has proved to be a workable way. As you hint, there are surely others and I hope we can pursue them as soon as possible! With the current regime in the US, change likely won't come from that way in a while, so I'm glad to see the EU making progress.
(Also, you're coming across as slightly entitled with the aggressive tone when saying you want the world to keep an unworkable production system just because it's convenient to you.)
Movement in the wrong direction just for the sake of movement isn't "progress". Mandatory warranty periods are simply bad economics, and it's not hard to see that this will go wrong for the reasons I mentioned (and more).
Please expound on how disposable goods are "unworkable".
If I'm coming across as entitled, it's because I'm very tired of people directly and noticeably harming my quality of life for the sake of trivial (and often counterproductive) environmental benefits. I shouldn't have to break the law (but I do have to) to have a good shower, a well-functioning toilet, a working gas can on my car, really clean clothes, or effective and safe home sanitation. If you aren't familiar with the ways "progressive" little environmental regulations in the US have fucked up all of those things to negligible environmental benefit, I'd be happy to explain any of them.
I assume that you either 1) have a different vision of how we can maximize wealth and convenience while minimizing waste and environmental damage, or 2) you don't care about waste and environmental damage.
If 1) is true, I'd like to learn what your vision is.
In the US we have the EPA, which is tasked with protecting the environment. It is not tasked with optimizing the net social utility of humanity. So, the EPA does everything it can to help the environment, so as to fulfill its organizational directive, even if the human cost is vastly out of proportion with the environmental benefit.
My dream vision is that the government tries to bring about a practical approximation of the preconditions of the Coase theorem. This is very, very different from the piecemeal and economically unsound approach it is using right now.
>a good shower, a well-functioning toilet, a working gas can on my car, really clean clothes, or effective and safe home sanitation.
Can you elaborate on these points. I feel like I have all of them (with the exception that I don't have a car) without doing anything environmentally illegal.
(In fact, I have specifically noticed that well designed modern toilets are far more effective than old ones that use tonnes of water.)
Low-flow showers and toilets are the bane of many people's existences. You might be happy with the "well designed" ones but a lot of people aren't. (Or don't have whatever the well designed one is -- my newly built office has had so many complaints with its toilets they're replacing them building wide, bets on how much better the new ones will be?) Some people will find solutions that would result in fines if found out. And it's not a new thing either: https://youtu.be/vMITcQUe-9M
Not sure what is meant by working gas can on the car... I personally just hate the gas hoses at stations which have the pressure contraption so I have to keep it physically pushed in to the hole and can't say let it start and clean my windshield, but it also has a hyper sensitive fume/fluid sensor so it cuts off if I try to have a flow over 50%. I love older stations with older pump hoses, no problems. Don't have to break the law for them, yet.
Clean clothes and home probably refer to some effective cleaning agents being banned because they're known to the state of California to cause cancer or something. I can't say I have that problem but I might not know what I'm missing.
The nice thing about the low flow shower heads and toilets is if you find one that works (which I have), you do save a little bit of money every month. Water is cheap in the US so it's not that much, but since I don't mind the low flow items I have, I have no complaints. :)
I'd have to read up more, but as I understand it, that style of gas pump (as well as "new gas cans" which also get a lot of complaints) were made to counter gas vapor leaks that reportedly contributed significantly to smog. Was it trivial in nature? I'd have to see a study.
Separately, the last big thing I knew with clothes cleaning was how phosphates were removed from detergents some years back due to environmental concerns; from my understanding, phosphates in consumer detergent caused far more than "trivial" nutrient pollution (example paper: http://www.jstor.org/stable/25038382?seq=1#page_scan_tab_con...). I noticed when non-phosphate dishwashing detergents were introduced, with our hard water they left lots of spots. But there are non-phosphate ways around that issue. The actual cleaning part is fine.
Yeah I hear you about when you find something nice that also has side benefits like saving money it's great. Since 2014 I've lived in 4 different houses, each one my friend and I replace all the lights with LEDs and only switch them back when we move out. (Plus they're white LEDs, I can't go back to yellow...) It's been great watching the price of those come down too, for our move in 2014 we bought an 8 pack for the same amount that one bulb with slightly higher wattage would have cost only a couple years beforehand.
Now that you bring up gas cans, I bought a new small one and I really don't like it over an old one I have. Instead of countering gas leaks it seems to encourage them, I can't keep it in the garage like the older one because when it gets warm its cheap plastic expands and eventually the gas leaks out of the nozzle (some 'safety' feature) and then gets into the furnace which happily pumps gas smells with the AC into the rest of the house... The can's not even half full either.
I vaguely remember the phosphates drama now. But I agree, I don't have any issues sanitizing things...
There are (in my opinion) only two good gas cans out there:
1. The standard US/NATO steel gerry cans with the welded seams (not the crimped seams that you see on the new versions today; you have to do some searching for these nice older cans that were built properly); nozzles can be found at army surplus stores and online.
2. RotoPax - seriously, if you want a modern solution made from plastic, and price isn't an object, RotoPax is what you want.
The cost savings are negligible compared to the extra time wasted cleaning and inferior shower experience. I'm willing to pay an extra 5 cents for a good shower. If water conservation is really such an issue, make the price of water reflect that somehow. I'm willing to pay an extra X% if it means I actually get to choose how to use my water.
The EPA has mandated flow regulators on showers to save water. The end result is that showers in the US offer an inferior cleaning experience and I have to take longer showers anyway. I waste time, use similar amounts of water, and am less satisfied with my shower. The same is true for water pressure regulations in the US. You simply aren't allowed to have a good water pressure. This hurts especially for multi-story buildings because you can't increase pressure downstairs to get good pressure upstairs. You have to use an expensive pump, so almost no one bothers. I have to illegally drill out my shower heads, and as of yet I have been unable to find a way to get good water pressure.
Toilets jam more frequently and are less sanitary than they were without flush volume restrictions. I usually modify the float mechanism in my toilet to help fix this.
Basically, if water wastage is such a problem, we should let the price of water reflect its actual cost including externalities. No one would go thirsty, and people would be able to optimally choose the amount of water they use, rather than the government trying to dictate it.
Thanks to CARB regulations, it is illegal to have a well-functioning gas can. You are required to use these piece of shit overcomplicated "spill proof" mechanisms, which are not spill proof, are absurdly slow, and break constantly because they're so complicated. The one time I really needed a gas can, the piece of shit broke, something shot off into the trees under spring pressure, and the gas was stuck in the can. Since then, I always use a non-compliant "water can" to store gas. These actually work, and they spill less than the "spill proof" models.
It's illegal to use various effective cleaning solutions like TSP because there is some evidence that they contribute to algal growth in rivers. Modern cleaning products in the US are drastically inferior and you have to mix your own with bulk chemicals if you want a good clean. IIRC, the guy at the EPA responsible for this is on record as saying he wants everyone to go back to washing with vinegar, so there's another example of placing environmental interest over net human interest.
Another cleaning product I'm not allowed to use: hot water. To effectively and safely sanitize surfaces, water has to be at least 170 degrees Fahrenheit. It is illegal for domestic water heaters to go that high in the US. I would accept a legal default of e.g. 130F for safety reasons, but it should be up to me if I want to e.g. wire my kitchen with water suitable for sanitization. Instead you have to use chemical products like bleach. I'd prefer the risk of occasional mild water burns while cleaning over having to inhale bleach fumes all the time.
It may well be worse for the cheaper one, as they have to cut costs somewhere - e.g. Apple recently announced they would move to use recycled rare-earth minerals only, and stop buying from war zones. Which is obviously the way it should be, right?
It's just that there are things we still haven't solved when it comes to conflicts, business, government and industry, leading to all of us here walking around with minerals mined by hand, by children, at gunpoint.
Now, if we want to change this, regulation has proved to be a workable way. As you hint, there are surely others and I hope we can pursue them as soon as possible! With the current regime in the US, change likely won't come from that way in a while, so I'm glad to see the EU making progress.
(Also, you're coming across as slightly entitled with the aggressive tone when saying you want the world to keep an unworkable production system just because it's convenient to you.)