It still ignores scarcity and arbitrarily picks one specific limiting resource in the production process as essential. Labor theory of value might be interesting from a philosophical standpoint but really has no practical application when it comes to understanding the market. And it introduces a major can of worms when it presumes stuff like intrinsic value.

It doesn't ignore scarcity, scarce goods are inherently more labor intensive. And it doesn't presume intrinsic value, the labor necessary is a subjective concept so the value must be as well.

You're probably right about it's use in understanding a capitalist market, Marx spends no shortage of time on how capitalists warp that basic idea.

How are scarce goods more labour intensive ? It doesn't take any more labour to make a good wine than a bad one.

That has little to do with 'scacity'.

Also - it's entirely possible that you make spectacular wine with the same effort I make bad wine.

They are somehow 'equal' in value?

It's just ridiculous. Labour theory of value just doesn't have a lot of meaning.

If your example isn't scarcity I don't know what to tell you, if better wine is "scarce" those labors are what is needed to make better wine.

Explain how it is possible, and how the situation does not immediately solve itself with you stopping doing something you hate and are bad at.

As many have pointed out, "value" is subjective. Your terrible wine may be loved by someone. Or you may really enjoy making wine. As wine has zero intrinsic value, it is a luxury good, it's very possible for both wines to be just as valuable.

It has plenty of meaning, it just doesn't explain "profit."

One wine being generally better than another, is not about 'scarcity'.

Yes - of course people will have differing opinions - but aggregate market demand can be different for something made with the same amount of labour - that is not an issue of scarcity.

i.e. 'most people' can view one wine as better than the other with equal amounts of labour.

Again - surely you can, if you want get into issues of 'scarcity' i.e. you can talk about production volumes etc. but that's kind of a second order issue.

I also found the wine example peculiar, as good wine and scarce wine aren't often the same, but I kept with it as it was brought up. Mistakenly I thought you had brought it up, sorry.

"Aggregate market demands" are capitalism, where wine is a status symbol and "good" wine generally refers to price. You are continuing to view this only in the eyes of capitalism and considering "value" to include "profit."

Like I said, someone else brought up the wine example and I just continued it despite finding it clumsy.

Price is value plus profit, thats the only reason to distinguish between the two.

I think my original point about wine was misunderstood. Good wine is not good because it is scarce, it is good because it is good, but it is more expensive because it is scarce.

If you could produce infinite quantities of Chateau-Petrus, it would be extremely cheap. But since it depends on being produced at a specific location, with a specific know-how, the quantities are limited. In this case, the amount of labour involved has little effect on the price of the wine.

First, and this isn't really relevant, price and scarcity play a much bigger role in what is considered "good wine" than you're saying.

Back on topic, "expensive" and "price" again add the concept of profit to the value produced. The only value of wine is enjoyment, so even Petrus wine has little more value than similar wines.

That increase in value is largely labor from learning the trade and long running slow maintenance. The only part that is scarce is the soil composition, something that could be recreated with a large amount of labor. Similarly, discovering that that area produced quality wine was labor intensive as well.

" Good wine is not good because it is scarce, it is good because it is good, but it is more expensive because it is scarce."

No - not at all.

Good wine can be 'more expensive' simply because it is better!

There's more willingness to pay, i.e. better demand curve!

Doesn't need to be less supply!

Point being: not all labour is equal, ergo, the idea of something being valued upon the 'amount of labour' put into it is really not useful.

I am not doing a strong job explaining this subject, but you are dismissing it out of hand without an understanding of it. I recommend taking codemac's advice and reading some of Marx's work. Even if you disagree with him it provides a greater understanding of how the economy works.

I did read it (a long time ago) and I don't agree with him.

I just don't believe the labour theory of value is a useful concept.

I don't think Marx provides any understanding of how the economy works - other than to hint strongly that prices are really a function of power - i.e. when one group has a monopoly on some critical thing, i.e. land or capital, then they can use that to leverage over another group, and then you have basically class struggle.

I mean, it's useful rhetoric, I'm not sure if it's useful theory.

In my opinion, you don't even need Marx for this. Even Jeff Bezos reportedly said "your margin is my opportunity". So if some product is expensive without being scarce, it is probably being "protected" by likely unethical means (like copyright?) or an oligopoly (unions?) that keeps prices artificially high.

Sorry if this missed the mark completely. Would love to learn.

I don't think the 'labour' concept of value has any meaning at all.

Given how much our labour is amplified by machines, energy, machine intelligence, parts, equipment, R&D, support - it's not a very helpful way to think about anything.

It's also very unhelpful when considering prices of IP related things.

You study your whole life to become a great actor, you make a film - it only takes a month. Is it only a 'one month film'? Equivalent to the quality of a newby actor?

Almost everything requires at least some skill ...

It depends -- how would we price things when everything takes 0 labor from humans?

Because I bet the price changes drastically, and that's the labor-value represented in object.