don't (at least some people) do both any more? does industrial sponsorship still exist for university students?
i got sponsorship from british aerospace. they paid part of my fees and in return i worked for them for a year before university (in the apprentice program) and over the summers.
i'd recommend that approach for anyone - even if (like me) you go on to an academic career (i continued for a phd). and i should admit that although i was on the apprentice scheme, as a future university student i wasn't held to the same standards as the people who would be working in the workshops (for example they had to get closer tolerances when machining things).
BUT the college courses we took as part of the apprenticeship (at the local polytechnic) were pretty bad. i don't know how anyone would have learnt much there. so it's not all perfect. it seems like the ideal world would have both university-quality courses and practical experience (and don't vocational university programs include industrial experience anyway - at least for engineers?)
When my dad had a apprenticeship, there were two types, technical, and craft. Craft apprenticeships were machinists, and they had no chance of ever going to university. They often stayed on the shop floor for the rest of their lives.
Technical apprenticeships(Often requiring o-levels and such, and came from grammar/technical schools), never touched the shop floor and many went on to university. Example Apprentices - Draughtsman and such.
Obviously different companies operated differently, if you was operating as a machinist... on the university track...
The image of CNC machine operator going on to engineering at an elite college may be nice, but often it's just PR to get people to apply for the jobs and a fairly exceptional career path. Most don't.
i don't completely follow your argument, so forgive me if this is irrelevant, but i wasn't saying that cnc operators should go to elite universities. my points were, i guess, that: (1) even if you're going to university it's a pleasure to get workshop experience and (2) the taught part of the apprenticeship (at the poly) was very poor quality.
i don't mean by (2) that it would stop a cnc operator from going to an elite university. what i mean is that i am sure future cnc operators hated it just as much as we (future grads) did, because it was very difficult to understand or learn anything.
I wasn't saying anything really other than the fact it's often used as PR. I was just saying the if you was on the technical track, at my dads old company you would not be training to be a machinist at all.
I also agree we need make sure that education is top quality as well. We should not let them down with bad quality education. They should have high quality education that can lead onto serious study if that's what they want to do.
i got sponsorship from british aerospace. they paid part of my fees and in return i worked for them for a year before university (in the apprentice program) and over the summers.
i'd recommend that approach for anyone - even if (like me) you go on to an academic career (i continued for a phd). and i should admit that although i was on the apprentice scheme, as a future university student i wasn't held to the same standards as the people who would be working in the workshops (for example they had to get closer tolerances when machining things).
BUT the college courses we took as part of the apprenticeship (at the local polytechnic) were pretty bad. i don't know how anyone would have learnt much there. so it's not all perfect. it seems like the ideal world would have both university-quality courses and practical experience (and don't vocational university programs include industrial experience anyway - at least for engineers?)